Record Store Day is mostly known for limited edition releases on vinyl and, to a lesser extent, CDs. The 155-page hardback book Treasures Untold: A Modern 78 RPM Reader, however, was a spring 2025 Record Store Day release limited to a thousand copies, though it does include a CD of contemporary artists performing songs from the 78s era. The dozen chapters present memories, stories, and perspectives by (and occasionally interviews with) devoted collectors of 78s, some of whom are also musicians, dealers, archivists, reissue compilers/liner note writers, and/or record label owners. The authors aren’t celebrities on the order of, say, R. Crumb, although there’s a detailed story of an in-person encounter with him in one of the chapters. But some will be known to general music historians, like editor Josh Rosenthal, who runs the Tompkins Square label (and did some of the writing and interviewing), longtime collector/reissue writer/assembler Dick Spottswood, and record label executive David Katznelson, who’s also worn several hats. The focus is usually on blues, country, and folk 78s, though a few other genres like jazz, gospel, and early rock’n’roll are also discussed.

Collecting and even listening to 78s isn’t a terribly common pastime in 2025, and not even “coming back” to the extent that the consumption and manufacture of vinyl music releases are. But there are still people seeking 78s, and the book illuminates how and why the search continues, and probably always will. I spoke to Treasures Untold editor Josh Rosenthal, who wrote one of the chapters himself, shortly after the book came out in spring 2025. Copies of the book are still available on Bandcamp, at https://tompkinssquare.bandcamp.com/merch/treasures-untold-a-modern-78-rpm-reader.
Why did you assemble a book about 78s and collecting them, a niche that’s pretty small, if growing?
It’s a really small niche. I explain the impetus for the book in my chapter pretty extensively. But basically, I’ve been around 78s a lot over the past twenty years with the label. [Rosenthal runs Tompkins Square Records, which has put out many reissues of all sorts, in addition to some recently recorded works.] Especially in the first ten years of the label, I put out a lot of compilations that were derived from 78rpm records. Like the Charlie Poole [anthology The Complete Paramount and Brunswick Recordings 1929], the People Take Warning set [of Murder Ballads & Songs of Disaster 1913-1938]. Arizona Dranes, who is a gospel singer back in the ‘20s, very influential but not well known. So we did a book/CD on Arizona Dranes [He Is My Story: The Sanctified Soul of Arizona Dranes]; Michael Corcoran wrote the book, and there’s a CD in there. Early Cajun stuff. I did a three-CD set of stuff in the Ottoman empire [To What Strange Place: The Music of the Ottoman-American Diaspora, 1916=1929] that’s produced by Ian Nagoski. Just a whole host of different releases and compilations and stuff that were derived from 78s.
So that’s been in my whole world. But I didn’t start collecting [78s] until June of 2023. I started because a friend of mine up in Napa was opening a record store, and she was like, “How would you like to try to find some records for me?” I was like, that sounds fun. I’ve never done anything like that. It was a lot easier then to find good quality collections than it is now, even two years later. It’s like so competitive for vinyl.
But I saw this listing on Craigslist, and it listed all these cool artists, like Muddy Waters and Lightnin’ Hopkins and all these people, for 78s. I was like, I’ll go out there. Why not? It’s in Berkeley [in the San Francisco Bay Area where Rosenthal’s based], I’ll go check it out. So I went, and there was like one other person in this garage. It was some guy who was moving to France, and he wanted to just get rid of everything super-cheap. So I wound up just buying a couple crates’ worth of 78s, and I started listening to them.
I didn’t even have the proper equipment yet. I didn’t have the right three-millimeter stylus. I had a one-millimeter stylus, which is basically what everybody uses for vinyl. So then I got myself a real stylus, and I started listening. I was just taken aback by how moved I was by the sound of so many of these records. Then I got a couple more collections in quick succession; I got these three big collections probably within the space of like eight weeks. They were all super-cheap, and they were all really, really good. That was the basis of the collection.
At that point, I was like, I wonder if I can get myself a Washington Phillips 78. So I put the search in eBay, [for] Washington Phillips [a gospel/blues singer who recorded in the late 1920s]. One showed up, and I bought a Washington Phillips 78 for 75 bucks. I was like, okay, check that box. I don’t have to have every Washington Phillips 78, ‘cause that would probably never happen, and it would be so expensive to try to track down good quality copies of that stuff.
At that point, I was just looking for representation from some of my favorite artists. Then that’s when the learning exploded. That’s when I started just going so deep on things. Any day that I want to dedicate time to learning about 78s, researching 78s, I will invariably find something new, or learn something new, or discover some new string band, or some weird blues guy. Or make a connection.
One of the most wonderful things about this is if you’re a true music fan, is there’s so many touch points of rock’n’roll that revert back. Like, I got this 78 by Jay McShann, called “Confessin’ the Blues” [released in 1941].

Yeah, the Rolling Stones did that song on their second British EP (and second US LP) in 1964.
Yeah! I forgot the name of the tune, but I’m listening to this 78. I’m like, holy shit, this is that Rolling Stones song. Then I learned that they learned it from someone else who covered it, but the Jay McShann version is actually the original version. [The Stones could have first heard the 1958 version by blues harmonica great Little Walter, or the 1960 one by Chuck Berry.] That record’s in my collection. That’s so cool.
Another example of that on the jazz side is, I got this Coleman Hawkins 78. Coleman Hawkins is one of those guys who never recorded a single bad thing, and a lot of his records are very cheap. You can get them for ten dollars or less, for some reason. I don’t know why he gets a pass, and his records are so cheap. But I got this Coleman Hawkins record, and in the small type on the label, it said “Thelonious Monk, piano.” So I looked up this 78, and lo and behold, Thelonious Monk’s first appearance on a record is on the Coleman Hawkins 78 that I own. And I probably got it for five bucks, or I didn’t pay any money for it.
Then I learned that Thelonious Monk returned the favor to Coleman Hawkins by inviting him on the very famous legendary Thelonious Monk-John Coltrane collaboration, their only album that they made together. Coleman Hawkins guests on that record. So it’s just like you’re making these connections. And it happens all the time, over and over again.
So that experience, that first feeling, kind of led me to just being compelled to create a book about it. But I also wanted to learn. I wanted to have the most knowledgeable people, and ask them to write the chapters, so that I could learn.
What are the most important qualities you get on a 78 that you don’t get with other formats?
The main thing is feel. I also address this in my chapter. You can listen to like a cleaned-up, remastered digital version of a 78, and sometimes you’ll hear more nuance, you’ll hear more detail. Obviously you won’t have surface noise as much, so it’ll be pretty clean to listen to. But one of the reasons I started really getting into 78s is, there’s something missing in that equation. In the digital transfers, there’s something lost.
It’s hard to describe it. But it’s definitely something that you can feel, like, in your body when you listen. And it has a lot to do with, I guess, the analog chain and the ways that something that was recorded, and the actual physical aspect of a 78 connecting with a three-millimeter needle and what that does in a physical sense. I’m not an engineer, so I can’t really articulate that part.
But I can say that it’s definitely something that you can hear. And it’s definitely something you can feel. It’s just a closeness to the music. When you listen to a digital format, or even an LP that’s remastered, I don’t think it’s bad. I think it’s different. So it’s a different experience; it’s not better, or worse. It’s different.
I would also say that it’s possible that the artist – you never know how much of a say they had, especially in the ‘20s. Like, how much control did Blind Willie Johnson have over his content? Probably none, right? But I think maybe later, if you think about some of the jazz artists who recorded, or OKeh Records—let’s say in the ‘40s, or something like that—they probably had a certain amount of control over what was heard. Whether it’s a test pressing or a playback of some sort. So you’re getting pretty close to what the artist actually intended something to sound like. Whereas today, you don’t have as much assurance that what their intent was sonically is what’s coming through.
I think today, if there’s a lead artist—if their name is on a record—I think they probably have a lot of say and a lot of control. But the extent to which they actually care, is like another question. If a few people come in and they have names and work with other major artists, and they slap some stuff on somebody’s track and the artist thinks it sounds good, that’s an example of them not really controlling things, but someone else controlling their song. I don’t know how it works, ‘cause I’m not in that world. I have no idea how hit records are made these days. No clue.
Is there a lot of worthwhile material that was only on 78 records that’s never been reissued?
There’s so many things that have been uploaded on youtube that are not reissued. There’s a few areas where a lot of 78s are being uploaded and being digitized. The main ones are youtube, where someone may have the only copy, or just a super-super-rare record, and the only way you can hear it is on youtube, because a collector uploaded it. Then you have the Internet Archive, The Great 78 Project. That’s ongoing, and they’ve been going for years now, uploading content to The Great 78 Project on Internet Archive. Then there’s also DAHR, which is Discography of American Historical Recordings. That’s through UC Santa Barbara. They have a tremendous amount of stuff that’s either streamable or downloadable on their website.
To me, those are the main ones. If you take all three of those, you’re probably going to be able to find what you’re looking for, if you need to listen to something. But there’s still tons of stuff that hasn’t been digitized.
This Tony Russell discography [shows me the book Country Music Records: A Discography, 1921-1942], there’s very little writing. There’s a foreword by him where he discusses his methodology, but it’s all this [shows a few pages of small-print listings]. It’s 1200 pages. This is every country music record [from 1921-42], and a lot of different genres kind of bleed into that. If you want to listen to any of these songs, I would say maybe 90 to 95 percent of all the songs that are in this book, you can hear somehow online. That just gives you an idea.
But have I been stumped? Yes. There have been times when I’ve been like, I can’t hear this thing. But most of it’s up, most of it’s available. I guess that’s good.

Are there certain important artists whose 78s have never been reissued, although the material really should be heard in other, possibly more widely available formats? For me personally, my top example is when Dust-to-Digital put John Fahey’s earliest and rarest records into the Your Past Comes Back to Haunt You: The Fonotone Years (1958-1965) box set in 2011. [Recorded between 1958-1965, much of the material on this five-CD box came out until 1970 as cut-on-demand 78s on the Fonotone label; after 1970 and until 1985, these would still be cut-on-demand, but issued in the 45rpm format.] I’d never seen the original discs on this set, and didn’t even a way of hearing them.
I think there’s probably tons. But I’d have to really think about who. There’s a lot of artists who, even though their music is “available,” like I said—you can hear it if you want to—there’s so many artists that deserve to be anthologized that have not been. It just depends on how much effort somebody wants to put into that. In the early 2000s, Dust-to-Digital did the Goodbye Babylon set [of rare vintage sacred music], that was important. In the early 2000s, you saw a lot of that stuff. There were a bunch of labels out there, including mine, that were doing that sort of reissue stuff.
I don’t know why labels have stopped basically putting out reissues of stuff from 78s, other than a few notables, like the King Oliver set that won a Grammy. [Centennial: King Oliver’s Creole Jazz Band won a Grammy for Best Historical Album in 2025.] There’s just not a lot of activity in that space. I don’t know if they feel like a lot of the consumers for that sort of stuff are dead, have died, or maybe they’re spooked by the lawsuits on Internet Archive from the major labels. Or maybe they feel like things have been exhausted.
Are there notable 78s that are known to have been released, or possibly released, that have never been found? I think the two most well known examples are a couple of singles from 1930 by bluesman Willie Brown.
It’s funny, because somebody just sent me a graphic of the Willie Brown 78 on the side of a milk carton. That was just sent to me, like, two days ago. I’m not qualified to say what’s supposedly out there but not discovered. There are people who can answer that question, though. [Collector and dealer] John Tefteller can definitely answer that question, and a multitude of other 78 collectors who are super-deep into it could answer that question.
I do know that someone [recently] discovered an unknown Big Bill Broonzy record. [“Station Blues”/”How You Want It Done,” a 1931 78 on the Paramount label, was discovered in 2023.] In this Tony Russell book, there’s tons of records that say “unissued.” So the recording data is there, but the record isn’t. So that definitely happens, and it’s rare. I’m not expert on it, I don’t know a lot about that.

There are a couple different approaches to preserving 78s, and rare music discs in general, that people give pro and con arguments for and against. One is to arrange for them to be given to an institutional archive, like at a university or museum. Another feels it’s more appropriate for the material to circulate in private collections. Do you have any views on this?
I think it depends on a bunch of different things. I think it depends on whose collection it is and where it’s going. So those are the two variables. Whose collection is it, who’s the recipient of the collection, and what are they going to do with it? Without knowing those two factors, I wouldn’t be able to say.
But I will say this. I went to the Dylan Center in Tulsa, and the guy who runs it was nice enough to take me into a non-public area where there was some stuff. He said hey, by the way, that’s [top folklorist] Harry Smith’s record collection and book collection. And there it was. I took pictures of all the spines, and it blew my mind.
So when someone prominent dumps their collection, or sells their collection piecemeal, obviously it’s going to be up to the heirs what they want to do, or maybe to the individual when he writes his will. But to have all Harry Smith’s records in front of you – that tells you a lot about Harry Smith. That informs you about his taste and his interests. And it’s fucking fascinating. If all his books were just sort of like sold and splintered out and sent this way and that way, you wouldn’t have that. Yes, it would be nice for people to own one of Harry Smith’s books, that’s cool. But taken together, they tell you a story about the person.
If it’s a prominent person, I’d like to see that collection go someplace where it can stay intact. If it’s a random collector—and it could be a prominent collector. It could be someone like Joe Bussard [who had a large and legendary collection of rare 78s], right? I spent time with him, worked with him on different projects. His family decided, and I’m sure they discussed it before he died, to just sell it off piecemeal. I think that’s fine. I think people should enjoy Joe’s collection.
But for somebody like [producer] Hal Willner, it could be really cool if people could just see his collection. [Legendary British radio presenter] John Peel’s a good example of somebody whose collection’s intact, people can go and see it. I don’t know if publicly, but there’s videos of Damon Albarn hanging out in John Peel’s record collection and pulling records, playing records. That is very cool. In fact, you could go on a website—you could actually go record by record in John Peel’s record collection. You could scroll over a record, and it would give you all of this discographical information. [Some of the material from Peel’s collection can be accessed in this fashion at johnpeelarchive.com.] Maybe you could even hear it. That was so cool.
So I guess my answer is, I think it’s good for records to circulate. If it’s just a random person like myself, then those records should just go out into the world. If it’s a prominent name who’s contributed hugely to culture, even like a David Lynch or something…wouldn’t you like to see David Lynch’s record collection? That would be again up to the family, and up to David Lynch if he had a will. But I think for something like that, it’s cool to have it intact and accessible in some way.
Some collectors and historians champion the 78 as the best sonic format for recorded music. In an update to his book The Sound of the City, perhaps the first first-rate history of rock music (originally published in early 1970s), British journalist and radio presenter Charlie Gillett wrote: “The deep wide grooves of 78 singles generated a big, warm sound which progressively disappeared with each successive format—45 rpm singles, 33 rpm albums, and digitally mastered CDs all tended to favor higher frequencies, at the expense of the ‘bottom end.’ Played through the huge speakers of jukeboxes, 78s delivered a massive sound which can only be vaguely approximated by CDs on a domestic hi-fi or portable system. Owners of Elvis’s 78 rpm singles on Sun justifiably believe that no other format has come close to reproducing their impact. It may help to turn up the bass on your amp, but you’ll never quite get there.” Do you think the difference in quality is that great?
I said in my chapter that condition is subjective, just like music is subjective. I would also add that format is subjective, just like music is subjective. It’s about taste. So somebody could listen to an Elvis 78 and then they’d listen to the CD. Depending on their point of view, or what they’re used to, or what their brain is wired for, they might think that the CD sounds better. I’ve noticed my ear is becoming more and more attuned to 78s, to analog, almost to the point where I just prefer it so much more now to listening to CDs, for example, that I just can’t think about even going back.
So I think that taste is a big part of it, and he’s expressing his opinion about what he enjoys. A lot of that has to do with what frequencies he enjoys, or speaks to him. If you talk to an engineer, they could explain it better.
[When] 78s were manufactured, the players were manufactured to match sonic quality of the 78. So a lot of purists, and a lot of 78 collectors that I know, want to listen to the 78s on period equipment. Somebody will want to listen to their Billie Holiday or Charlie Parker 78 from the ‘40s on ‘40s-era equipment. To say that it’s better or more bass or this or that, I don’t know that it’s about anything other than subjective taste when it comes to playback.
Again, I’m not engineer, but the two things that folks point to is, [on 78s] there’s more space between the grooves. If you’re using a three-millimeter needle, you’re picking up more information. Also the 78 speed allows you…that’s why people go nuts for a Miles Davis that’s on 45rpm. Somebody who’s an engineer could explain this to you, but the speed has a factor as well.
I’m not an audiofile, so I don’t care beyond feel. And I have a very basic setup with, like, a Marantz from the ‘70s and decent bookshelfy type of speakers, and a modern Audio-Technica turntable. So I’m probably not a great person to talk to about this stuff. Because beyond sort of almost like a superficial enjoyment of how 78s sound, I’m not an audiofile, and I’m not an expert, and I’m not an engineer. I just know what sounds good.

Some of the prices for the really rare desirable 78s are really high. Some of the stories in the book discuss discs being sold for sky-high sums. Is this a hobby that’s affordable for people with average/modest incomes?
Yeah, I talk about it in the chapter. I think you can amass a really respectable 78 collection without losing your shirt, selling the farm so to speak. If you want to spend $100-200 a month or something like that on 78s, you can get some really nice 78s. There’s a lot of major artists whose records are not expensive. Just as a few examples, you mentioned Little Walter. Most of his records on Checker, you can pay $20 or $30 for those records, and they’re unbelievable. They sound amazing. They’re classic recordings. People tend to not realize that the MGM Hank Williams records are 75 years old now. And you can get one for ten bucks. Like I said, you can get pretty much any Coleman Hawkins record. You can get Duke Ellington records very inexpensively.
So it just depends what you want to do. If you want to start getting into the nosebleed territory, it’s crazy. What people are paying for 78s never ceases to astound me. There’s two songs that come with the CD on Treasures Untold by Wilmer Watts, who’s a country figure from the ‘20s. Two of his 78s went for $4400 and $5700 respectively on eBay last week. So $5000 for Wilmer Watts, [on] Paramount. Paramount records don’t sound very good, traditionally. So just think about it. $5000. I had no idea what they were worth or how high they could go. I was just watching it on eBay, just for fun. That’s astounding.
I’m never gonna be that guy. I wrote that in the chapter too. It’s not that I can’t buy a $5000 Wilmer Watts. It’s just I never would, and I don’t want to. I just don’t wanna be that guy. I’ll buy a Washington Phillips 78 for $75 in so-so condition. I’ll buy a Blind Willie Johnson record for $100 if I can find a beater, like a VG [i.e. in “very good” condition, which for 78s often means considerable surface noise, though still very listenable]. I have numerous Blind Lemon Jefferson records that I got for about $100 each, some a little less.
There’s really good attainable records for a couple hundred bucks. If that’s your thing, and you feel like having a treasure, and treating yourself and spending a couple hundred bucks, then I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that as long as it’s within your budget.
There’s a couple of really good auction sites that I don’t want to name, other than eBay, ‘cause I don’t need the competition. I love going on there and it’s kind of like a closed system, because there’s only a certain amount of people who know about it. Every month they’re on there looking for stuff. I buy things from them, and maybe I’ll spend a couple of hundred bucks a month on those sites, and I’ll get some really great stuff. It doesn’t impact my lifestyle, so it’s fine, and I’m happy. I’m happy with my records, I’m happy spending the money, I’m happy supporting the people who are selling the records, and what they do.
So I guess the answer is, it depends on your means, your goals in terms of collecting, and what’s important to you.

Many people don’t realize that in the early years of rock’n’roll, many records were still being made as both 78s and 45s. There are Fats Domino 78s, for instance, that have the reputation of sounding good.
Fats Domino is a great example that I should have named of someone of whom you can amass their records for super-cheap. All [his] Imperial records, you can get pretty much for under twenty dollars. They sound fantastic, the Imperial pressings are great. I bought a “Blueberry Hill” for eight dollars because basically the 78 version is different than the version that’s been on every fucking CD reissue ever. I bought that one because there was some kind of edit, or fix, or something that he had to sing over, or something like that. So that the 78 is minutely different from all successive versions of it. I’m not a forensic scientist when it comes to music, but that was really interesting.

There are a lot of interesting stories, some of which are in Treasures Untold, of collectors actually knocking on doors in neighborhoods in the South in the 1950s and 1960s where it was thought likely for some of those desirable 78s to have been bought when they were released. The collectors would ask the residents if they had any records to sell, and got some of their 78 collections that way. Is that possible to do these days, 50-70 years later, and find some rare 78s?
I guess it’s possible. It’s interesting, because I had this conversation with Wade Falcon, who’s a descendant of Joseph Falcon, who is one of the first recorded Cajun artists. I was like, do you think that any of the Cajun records are still out there in people’s homes, in attics and basements and garages? He said, definitely. He said, if you went to some of these parishes in Louisiana, like in some of these obscure towns and stuff, you would probably find some records. But you can’t just knock on people’s doors down there. They won’t take too kindly to that.
So yeah, I think it’s possible. But it’s probably not as fruitful. Because when Joe [Bussard] and Richard Nevins and all those people were going around doing that, they were only like one generation away from when those people first collected those records. Now we’re fifty or sixty years past that, and a lot of things happen. A lot of people throw stuff out, or they junk stuff, or they sell stuff. So there’s that.
But also, Malcolm [Vidrine] at Venerable [Music, an auction site for 78s] told me that back in the ‘90s, let’s say, like twenty or thirty years ago, you could still raid all the antique shops in the south and find amazing shit. And that is over. So are there records out there? Yeah. It’s much harder to find stuff. I don’t care if it’s from a private collector person who’s a hoarder or…people know the value of records in a way that they never did all the way back then.
Those guys [collecting 78s many years ago] totally took advantage of that, I think, ‘cause they wanted the music. Joe [Bussard] didn’t go around to houses ‘cause he thought he would make a mint off the records. I don’t think that’s why he did it. He just loved the music, he knew this stuff was rare, and he wanted to get out the rare good stuff. It wasn’t about oh, I can get this record, and in twenty or thirty or forty years later I could sell it on eBay for a thousand bucks. That’s not how he operated, and I’m sure it’s not how those other guys did either.
Was it profitable in the end? Yes, very. But that’s sort of almost besides the point when you look at the contributions of those people. They didn’t just hoard the records and keep them for themselves. Joe Bussard found all those records, and then he made mountains of cassettes that he sold to people, compilations. He had a radio show. He used to loan his records out to the people who do compilations. He shared his stuff. And that’s what it’s about. It’s not just about knocking on a door, getting records from some poor soul who doesn’t know what they have, and exploiting that person. You can make up your mind whether or not that’s exploitation or not. But these guys, they definitely did good things with the records they got.
Bussard also helped John Fahey a lot by actually recording Fahey on 78s for Bussard’s Fonotone label [which were finally reissued on Dust-to-Digital’s 2011 Your Past Comes Back to Haunt You Fahey box].
I’ve never heard this or read it anywhere or anything, but I really think that Fahey’s impetus for starting Takoma [Records, which released LPs by Fahey, Robbie Basho, Leo Kottke, and Bukka White in the 1960s] – he looked at Joe. He was like, well, Joe’s got his own label. Why can’t I have my own label? Why can’t I record myself and other people who’ve put out records? I’m sure that’s where he got the idea.
Because in 1959, when Fahey first put out his self-produced, self-released first album, there was no one doing that. It was unheard of, to put out your own record. I think he got all the ideas and probably a lot of the tactical side of it, like learning how to do it, from Joe.

Going back to one of your main reasons for doing the book, what were the most interesting things you learned in the process of assembling it?
The most important takeaway for me in this entire project is that I learned how deep the well is, in a way that I did not anticipate. Because you think you know something, but you don’t really know. once you start to explore, you realize that you have so much more to learn. And the past just keeps giving these gifts. On any given day if I want to, if I feel like just hunkering down and like researching, going down rabbit holes, learning about different artists, I can do it, and I’ll learn something new every single time I do that.
The other takeaway is, I have such a clear understanding of the timeline of music now that I’m collecting 78s. Because you see how genres impacted. You see the overlapping, or the melting pot or whatever, of all these different genres and how things progressed from the ‘20s. I start in the ‘20s, because I’m not as interested in music pre-1920, 1923. Like when Fiddlin’ John Carson [did] the earliest earliest country records, that’s kind of where I start. I’m not interested in music from the 1890s through like 1915 or something. I don’t care about marching bands, I don’t like opera, I don’t like military music. Some of the stuff from like the early 1900s, the Spanish records are very nice, some of the ethnic stuff in the 1910s. But I’m sort of ignorant about it, so it’s not even worth commenting, ‘cause I just don’t know. It’s not really my taste. I just don’t care about that stuff.
But you start learning about how the artist found songs. For instance, the Carter Family. They had this African-American person who used to take A.P. Carter around black churches, where he wouldn’t have been welcome necessarily. He was like A.P. Carter’s muse for finding songs that the Carter Family would record. That’s an amazing revelation. And it ties into today, because you have, like, Beyoncé going out there with her Cowboy Carter [album] and being so controversial. Like, what is country music? Where did it start? How did it start?
Jimmie Rodgers learned from black musicians. Carter Family picked up a lot of their songs…it says A.P. Carter on the record as the person who wrote the song. But a lot of those songs came from traditional black churches. So you start putting this stuff together, and it’s totally fascinating. Then you just see how the music moved through the 20th century. Like the early country stuff, some of the sort of hybrid pop-country kind of stuff, like Vernon Dalhart. Then the ‘30s, things really changed because of the Depression and people weren’t buying records. So you have a totally different kind of sound, almost, in that era.
Then moving into the ‘40s, which is kind of like an iffy decade, you have like Andrews Sisters and all this kind of stuff. You get into the jump blues, rhythm and blues, and all that. You just have this different perspective based on records that you see on a regular basis, stuff that you’re seeing, stuff that you’re listening to that is different that you’ve never heard before. Maybe you don’t like it, but it’s still part of that process.
You also learn a tremendous amount about what you don’t want. Like, I don’t want any [early jazzman] Jimmie Lunceford records. And there’s a very good reason for that. Not to be a snob, but there’s a multitude of artists that I probably never had any awareness of before that I have an over-awareness of because they’re in like every collection that you see.
It’s totally fascinating to listen to something like Billie Holiday. Listening to how timeless it is. You’re like, why isn’t this dated? There’s so much music from this era that’s so dated. It sounds like something you just don’t want to hear. And then you have this timelessness that comes through these artists. That’s the other thing you start to realize. You realize there’s a reason why everyone remembers Bessie Smith, and they don’t remember like dozens of her contemporaries. It’s because she was great. You hear the records, and you’re like, well, there’s all these other contemporaries that were basically plying the same trade. But they’re not as good. They don’t hit you the same way.
I think it’s true of Bessie. I think it’s true of Billie Holiday. She just completely wiped the competition. That’s how you remember certain artists, and certain artists go by the wayside. But there’s also pockets of collectors who really are interested in some of these more obscure ancillary characters from those eras.
There have long been rumors or stories that some hardcore collectors actually destroyed some of their extra copies of prime rare 78s so their own copies would be more valuable, and copies in general would be scarcer. Is there any substance to those?
I’ve heard that same thing, but it doesn’t make sense. If there’s only five copies known in the world, why would you break one? Why wouldn’t you sell it? I mean, rare is rare, whether it’s one copy or five copies or even thirty copies, or more. These records are rare. So breaking a record just doesn’t improve your position. It’s crazy. I don’t know who did that. I don’t know if it was done. It’s more like a rumor or something. Until I find out something solid on that, it’s just fake news or something. I don’t know what it is.
There’s some haggling and negotiation for getting rare 78s that can seem like gamesmanship. Harvey Pekar wrote about some of this kind of negotiation with collectors like R. Crumb in a pretty lighthearted way in his comic American Splendor, but sometimes it can seem to get pretty heavy, and get into back-and-forth and high prices that some people outside of this world will find mystifying.
It’s all fair game, right? It’s just like any other commodity. It’s like something’s really rare, and it’s worth what someone’s willing to pay for it. Is a Wilmer Watts record worth $5000? It certainly isn’t to me. I love Wilmer Watts, I think he’s amazing. I’d love to own a Wilmer Watts record. But not for five grand. Who is this person who paid $5000? I don’t know. But it’s madness. I’m not saying it’s not worth $5000. I’m just saying, it’s madness to pay that much money for a record. It just doesn’t really make a lot of sense to me. But I guess I feel that way about Wilmer because I don’t look at Wilmer the same way I look at Robert Johnson, or Charley Patton.
Like, if you’re gonna spend $5000, why not buy a Charley Patton record? You know you’re gonna get that value, if value is your thing. Maybe you just wanna live with it the rest of your life, and that’s it. But if you’re really thinking on a monetary level with this stuff, which can get really convoluted and crazy…
I would just buy something that I would know would appreciate in value. If I’m at that level, I have to know that I’m getting value. Maybe the person who bought Wilmer Watts is just such an uberfan that he has to own it, and that’s okay. That’s great. Just like anybody who wants to buy a Maserati, like, you can have a Subaru, but you want a Maserati. To me, it’s crazy. I would never spend $200,000 on a car. That’s insane, even if I could go out and buy a $200,000 car.
So it’s kind of a similar thing. There’s a lot of stuff that’s done not online, but between collectors. There’s collectors hitting up other collectors and making deals and stuff like that, which is fine.
Do you think the book will raise enough awareness of 78 collecting that it might actually make it harder to find and collect 78s?
I don’t think I wield that kind of power. I wish! I don’t think Tompkins Square does. Will it turn on some people to collecting? I certainly hope so. Because I want people to feel the joy that I have felt in this revelation over the past couple years. So I encourage that.
There’ve been these certain flashpoints for 78s over the years. Ghost World, or the Jack White PBS special, or old music coming back through Ken Burns’s Jazz [PBS series], or Brother Where Art Thou. And also Goodbye Babylon when that came out, and the Charley Patton box set, and maybe some of the stuff that I did. So there’ve been moments when 78s have come to the fore culturally a little bit.
So who knows at one point people got on the train? But I do feel like, just judging from some of the sites that I frequent, some of these, it’s very closed. It doesn’t seem like it’s growing exponentially. I don’t know that it will, and it’s fine if it does. I mean, either way.
Some people in the world of music criticism see what you’re doing with your book and label, and what I and plenty of other music historians of past eras are doing, as irrelevant nostalgia, when listeners should only be paying attention to what’s happening now. But I, many others, and probably you feel like it’s not just worth doing because it’s great music and fascinating history, but also because, in our particular times, cultural and ethnic diversity is often under attack. Many people in power would like to negate or erase this history, as part of their agenda of making culture and artistic expression narrower, attacking certain social and ethnic classes they feel threatening to their power structure, or even eliminating the benefits and riches of cultural diversity and history altogether. 78s, and what you’re doing with your book and label, are preserving vital history that not only reflects their times, but has something to say about our times, and always will entertain and inspire people.
I think it’s a great point. I have thought about that. I wish I had thought about it more, but it wasn’t in the main when I was writing in 2023. It’s more prevalent now, obviously, with what’s going on. Look at what’s happening. Like defunding this and that, going after cultural things. The National Endowment for the Humanties, they slashed that. Somebody at DAHR said that they lost their funding at UC Santa Barbara. I guess they were using some of that NEH funding to do transfer work on 78s that they can no longer do. So there is a connection, however tenuous, to this work and what’s going on.
I think anything that’s historical, that tells a story…that’s the other thing about the timeline. You’re seeing how culture and music like were impacted by events in the world. There’s a lot of historical recordings based on events. This is preserving our history, our culture. Again, how people from different cultures came together. It’s almost like the best of America, right? It’s like the ideal of America. It’s all these people, immigrants basically from different countries, from Africa, from France when you look at the French Cajun stuff, the Celtic music that informed so much early country and folk stuff, Mexico, Hawaii. I mean, the influence of Hawaiian guitar on Jimmie Rodgers, on like so many blues and country musicians. So you’re talking about native cultures that impacted American music.
It’s all this stuff. Obviously, it seems like they’re trying to chip away at the values that inform projects like this. Today you heard about PBS and NPR getting defunded. These are our values. These are the things that we hold dear. These are the things that we value. Like, you have a bookshelf there with a bunch of stuff that the administration would like to burn, all your books. They’re not interested in this stuff. They don’t want this stuff to be propagated. So your point is very relevant.

Although the book was, unusually for the occasion, a Record Store Day release, copies are still available post-Record Store Day?
The book, post-Record Store Day, is now available on Bandcamp. I don’t know how long the product will be there, but I have some copies that I held back for my fans on Bandcamp and friends and etc.
Copies of Treasures Untold are still available on Bandcamp, at https://tompkinssquare.bandcamp.com/merch/treasures-untold-a-modern-78-rpm-reader.
